Hi Redwooddave. Welcome to the forum. 

I'm not sure I'm up to a philosophical chat, so I'll suggest that we stay alive because our brains have evolved for us to want to stay alive. I'm not aware of any animal that commits suicide, and I think the reason for this is that such tendencies are counter to survival and are selected out of the gene pool. Of course humans are somewhat different in that we can overcome our evolutionary programming on occasions, but in the end the will to survive is buried deep inside everone's mind. Furthermore, as a social animal, we also want others within our social group to survive.

So, while it might appear sensible to make an early exit, you've got to overcome a billion years of evolution first. 

I am not talking about suicide directly, although that too seems more tolerable that some long torture of my family simply because I dont want to die, when that is inevitable.  Not just overcoming the survival insinct as you mention.

It is really a question of Ethics.
How is my short term survival of more import than the memories they will hae to carry for decdes?  Of a debt they might have to pay down?  Of the emotional and Psychological burden they would have to bear if this plays out as a long slow death?

What right do I have to inflict that onto them by taking HUGE stride (medically) to give myself some short period of extra time?

I find myself feeling this GUILT over what they might have to bear, and I have no right to inflict that upon them, and I know they would never refuse it out of love no matter the cost.

When these questions plauge me, daily, It think odd thoughts, like "Why not just take up heroin as a new habit?"  Junkies claim it is bliss, I never induldged because I understand how destructive it is, but if I am dying anyway, what is there to lose now?  And if I od, the problem resolves itself, no long term suffering for the family.

Then I am rationalizing all the reason that does not malke sense, and round and round and round my mind goes.

I am not asking if this is right or wrong, or if anyone agrees or disagrees.
I AM ASKING, does anyone else go through this, or is it a by product of my life time exploration of Philosophy and Ethics?

Is this a normal thought process people work through, or, as normal for me, am I contemplating thingsothers simply refuse to contemplate?

 

Every marriage ends, either in divorce or the death of one of the participants. Every child has to face the death of their parents, or else the parents have to face the death of the child.

But that doesn't stop couples from pairing up, getting married, and having children. When you get married, you both agree to look after each other. 

As that profound philosopher Shakira put it: "That's the deal, my dear".

Hi there ... just a little thought ... l wonder if Steven hawking felt /feels like that, and how sad the world would be without his knowledge ... l really like this room of ours with so many different thoughts and opinions ...

As someone with many ongonig health issues, thoughts do cross our minds .. but what works for me is reading a thread from a mum with a two year old starting chemo ... and l taped a t.v programme about a children's chemo ward .. where they all had a smile and there were some with no hair .. others tied to drips still walking around chatting to other kids ... a teenager just wanting to be a teenager not laying with no energy after months of chemo ...but they still carry on ...

I can so empathise with how you feel, I've sat there with a big black hole in front of me, and wishing it would swallow me up ,  when things seemed to overwhelm me .. but those things I said pull me back up and my wonderfull family and buddies on here, that nearly all have "meltdown days" ... I say to my self how dare I feel like this ... and l hope writing it all down an getting it off your chest helps a tad ... and remember pain relief has come a long way ... and there is help out there if we just reach out .. 

I hope you can find some piece and you could help others who feel lost and can see no hope,, and in helping others, you will get that strength your looking for , right back at ya ... hold on for one more day

They will face my death regaurdless.  Should I then say that the details of that are irrelevent, and only my intrests are of merit?

That is not ethical.

Thanks for that, at least I know I am not in utterly uncharted teritory in these random thoughts.

I do not think Mr. Hawking is an apt comparison, yes he has had a long difficult life.  Yes he has had to depend upon others and used his mind to create purpose and value in his life.  I am not Mr. Hawking, nor has my life been anything like his.  My children, NOW, recall a man who took them onto a frozen lake as children to see the Hale Bop Comet, who took them croos country camping, who has hiked the AT as a young man.

Vibrant.  The emotional weight of watching me, like I wattched my own mother, whither, become skeletal clinging to life by medical means, and then slowly dying, that is another issue.  I could shorten that entire process simply by NOT taking extreme medical interventions.

I can empathize with such children and teens as you mention, but they have their entire lives ahead of them, whereas I ONLY exist now due to the advancements of medical science.  If I had lived 100 years ago the chances are I would already be gone, gone back  further in history and the nubers keep dropping.

I am sorry you are having these "meltdown" days.  I am not, and this is not any sort of meltdown.  For me it is the raw Ethical Problem which irks me, which might be difficult for others who donot know me to grasp.  In my life I have always championed the underdog, stood up for the vitimized, and always based on Ethics.  This has placed me on the wrong side of firearms and in the face of violent men, it has placed me in dangerous positions where my own life was in danger, because I could not live with myself if I did not speak up, if I did not intervene.

In this situation I am begining to see myself as the issue, my health as the violent domestic abuser, and MY SELF as the only person who can intervene before it takes an axe handle to my family.  As in similar situations where I risked myself, for Ethics, For Others, I am rather stuck on why I should not Risk my self for my family in this.

I do think you raise a valid point about purpose Chriss, with Mr. Hawking and myself.  I see some purpose in sparing my family and little purpose in simple survival for survival's sake alone.

Hi Dave,

No advice, just some thoughts.

I have COPD, emphysema, multiple myeloma, peripheral neuropathy, mild cognitive impairment and have two permanent colostomy bags. Although I'm in remission with the myeloma, it will come back. I've virtually no memory, long or short term. I've been very ill and close to death twice in the last 18 months and disabled to varying degrees for 30 years.

Although you say you're not depressed and indeed you may not be, you also may be or at least teetering on the edge of it. Evidence for this is the constant pondering, stuff going round and round in your head. I used to have that but for years I've been on duloxetine. Although prescribed for chronic pain, it's an anti-depressant and doesn't allow me to hold a negative thought in my head for more than a couple of seconds. Just something worth thinking about.

You say you don't want your family to go through the torture of seeing you decline and you want to be remembered as you were or are rather than as a terminally ill man, possibly skeletal and unable to do anything.

Your alternative idea is suicide, while able to accomplish it. I suggest you wouldn't be remembered as anything other than a suicide and your family might hate your memory for it. You'd deprive them of you. A different matter if you became so ill that you couldn't cope any more; they might understand then, just a case of increasing your morphine such that you're at peace and pain-free rather than suicide.

When you're actually terminally ill, with death on the horizon, yyour family will already be in the grieving process. Caring for you may give them succour, rather than horrifying them.

I'm very restricted in what I do or what I'm able to do at the moment. After being in bed, restricted to sleeping in a reclined sitting position and awake every 90 minutes to urinate, I get up and sit in a chair until it's time to go to bed again. There are times when I get out while my Mrs does shopping or maybe a short visit to a relative but basically, I do nothing but go on this computer, visiting the same half dozen sites.

I take my pleasure in the small things - a smile, a conversation, do I feel good at this moment, what my adult kids are doing, the fact that they're continuing to live their lives with their own families and most of all, my beautiful grandchildren, one of whom seems to have an affinity for me and my nonsense songs and stories. Seeing a younger one as he's trying to start walking. Having him pull my beard or grab my glasses. At the sheer intelligence of the other on, so obviously far advanced than her peers. It's the little things, the minutiae of the day. Alll I crave is normality. The not the old normality but today's normality.

So I don't have thoughts like you. I think I may have thought them for a few seconds or minutes before discounting and forgetting them. I can empathise but my motto, if I had such a thing, is 'be sufficient to the moment'. Because I've little memory and cannot ponder the future, I literally have no choice but to live in the moment. That's not a complaint, it's tremendously freeing. I have no worries. I'm not able to worry. I'd recommend it to anybody.

Don't know if this is the sort of answer you wanted but it's the only one I've got.

Best Regards

Taff

Hi Taff ... just wanted to say, what a lovely, heartfelt reply ... I'm truly in ore of your outlook and your love for your grandkids ..( which we share) ..... you are a real star ... l hope your words are read and taken on board ...and help ... bless ya Chrissie x

You bring up points I have also thought of, like being thought of as a suicide.
With no understanding that is very hard, less hard if people grasp and support compassionate death.
Also not what I am talking about directly.  I am not talking about suicide.
I am pondering why I, or ANYONE thinks it is ethical to spend enourmous funds, and have your family and loved ones endure enourmous emotional pain watching us slowly die, when it could be otherwise
SIMPLY
by not taking advantage of all those medical props by which we survive.
 

For instance you and I share a number of conditions.  If I simply did not take that surgery, its all over, instead of being prolonged.

While I hear what your saying about depression, I am not depressed, I have always been contemplative like this, always had odd bits of ethical matters go round and round till I come down on one side or another.

This one is new for me, and I was just wondering if it was common, or if it was just me being me.